GarryOwen's Random Historical Notes

Todd, Gordon Rottman's gun truck book is an Osprey. I forgot about the Squadron one. I apologize for misleading you. They are both good books.

Thanks Jimmila. Glad you like them.

Tom

Here comes another one. For gun truck fans, there is more info from Gordon Rottman. Some other things as well.

GUN TRUCK ARMOR
The relatively light armor used on most gun trucks was adequate against small arms fire and fragmentation. The heavier weapons such as heavy machine guns, RPG's, recoilless guns and minds could seriously damage or destroy a gun truck, much less unarmored trucks. Rottman, Vietnam Gun Trucks, Page 26

The gear stowed between the gun compartment’s double wall could absorb much of the penetration blast of an RPG. However the molten core and jet blast might penetrate into the other side of the interior. There might be some minor fragmentation spray inside, but for the most part crewmen were unharmed unless directly in the path of the jet-like blast. The gun compartment’s open top prevented any overpressure affect.  Rottman, Vietnam Gun Trucks, Page 23

Some trucks had steel plates over fuel tanks and on the engine compartment sides. Rottman, Vietnam Gun Trucks, Page 23

Armored jeeps had removable 3 inch thick bulletproof glass for the windshield and doors. Rottman, Vietnam Gun Trucks, page 28

Some gun trucks had 2 inch thick bulletproof glass for the doors and the windshield. Rottman, Vietnam Gun Trucks, page 31

Double walled gun trucks had the spacing between filled with their personal items, supplies, firearms, and ammunition. These were effective in stopping bullet penetration and also in dispersing the blast of shaped charge projectiles from recoilless rifles and RPGs. Ammunition cans rarely detonated. Rottman, Vietnam Gun Trucks, page 34

Mine detonations would not explode ammunition in cans on the floor.  Rottman, Vietnam Gun Trucks page, 34

HAND GRENADES
Range of hand grenade is 40 yards. Arnold, Tet Offensive, 1968 p. 20

Hand grenade longest range 30-40 meters. Moraldi, Uniforms and Equipment of U. S. Military Advisors in Vietnam, p 47

Two grenades exploded just beyond Delemeter's right elbow. The corner of a clump of bamboo shielded his body from the blast. Marshall, Battles in the Monsoon, p 260 bce

V-40 mini-grenade threw 400 fragments in a 5 meter circle. Some could throw it accurately almost 100 yards. It was obtained by Ben Baker from Holland for SOG. Plaster, SOG: A Photo History of the Secret Wars, p. 146

HH-3 JOLLY GREEN GIANT
In an air rescue by actual timing, a Jolly Green or a Super Jolly Green Giant was in a hover for seven minutes in an area with tremendous gunfire, and did not take a single hit. Marrett, Cheating Death, p. 62. Photo section shows this helicopter to be an HH-3

On at least one occasion, the HH-3 had two PJs and the flight engineer. Marrett, Cheating Death, p 163

HH-53 SUPER JOLLY GREEN GIANT
Photo of PJ firing minigun from rear ramp HH-53. He wears ERDL camouflage, flight helmet, and bungee cord harness. Marrett, Cheating Death,  photo section.

Udorn had at least 2HH-53s. At least one, in addition to the pilots, had a flight engineer and two pararescue specialists. On one mission, the pilot on the ground did not need help with the penetrator, so one PJ manned the mini-gun at the tail ramp. The other PJ handles the number two mini-gun on the left side. The flight engineer handled the hoist. Marrett, Cheating Death, p. 158

One of the Knife HH-53s had a door gunner with a mini-gun. The indig team members who had been lifted aboard, positioned themselves on the open back ramp and used their M 79s to fire tear gas grenades at the NVA attackers. Yarborough, Da Nang Diary, p 290

HMONG
Referred to Commandos and helmets.
Parker, Code Name Mule, pg 167

HUEY GUNSHIPS
Grenades and other hand held weapons as well as gunship armament. Sever, Xin Loi, Viet Nam, p. 76-77, pb

Apparently A/229th AHC had attached gunships. Two were on each side of the slicks, slightly forward. Moore and Galloway, We Were Soldiers Once and Young, p 59

HUEY SLICKS
Huey pilot seat. Crandall was in the left seat of the Huey as pilot. Moore and Galloway, We Were Soldiers Once and Young, p 58

LEADERSHIP, NVA AND VC
Local VC leadership varied from poor to excellent. Garland , Infantry in Vietnam, p 9

Main Force VC are led by experienced and dedicated Communists who possess an excellent background in guerrilla warfare. They are well equipped and trained. Garland , Infantry in Vietnam, P9

NVA officer took cover behind a bunker and directed his men from  there, lifting his head up to yell directions when the fire lifted. Haponski,  One Hell of a Ride, p 286

LAAW (aka LAW)
Minimum distance 9 meters based on based on US Army TRADOC No. 3.

M-42 DUSTER
M-42 Duster maneuvered its gun right into the opening of a bunker and fired. The whole thing went up, people and all. Brennan, Headhunters, p 136 bce

The M-42 Duster had an M-60 and an M-79. Rottman, The U.S. Army in the Vietnam War 1965-1973,  p 59

M-41 WALKER BULLDOG TANK
At Hue, the M-41 76mm gun could not penetrate the masonry buildings. Hammel, Fire in the Streets, p. 339

All for now. The next installment starts off with quite a list of interesting items on the M-48 tank.

Tom

Another solid installment Tom! Thanks for this!

Thank you very much, Todd. As soon as I saw the email about a posting on this thread, I knew it had to be you.

Tom

Cheating Death just might be the next book on my reading list.

I enjoyed it very much Rod.

Tom

This installment is all the M-48 Patton tank.

M-48 PATTON TANK
Even in the densest growth M48s could create an emergency LZ for a single Huey in under 15 minutes. Dunstan, Vietnam Tracks, p. 113

90mm canister round fired in a bunker aperture blows off the roof and vaporizes all within. Mills, Low Level Hell, p. 194, pb

90mm canister round takes down trees, literally cut the jungle down. Mills, Low Level Hell, p. 166, pb

With tanks running nearby, the VC could not hear the helicopters overhead. Mills, Low Level Hell, p. 168, pb

M-48 had an intercom phone on the rear fender. Hammel, Fire in the Streets, p. 67

At Hue, used M-48 tanks to make new streets right through buildings and walls. Hammel, Fire in the Streets, p. 91

Hue tank tactics. Hammel, Fire in the Streets, p. 152

At Hue, the Marines used M-48 90mm smoke rounds at one point to extract casualties. Hammel, Fire in the Streets, p. 244

Zumbro was astonished that the M-48s did not button up. The tank commander and the loader were outside their hatches. The loaders held M3 submachine guns, watching the trees for snipers and grenadiers. The drivers had submachine guns on their laps. From time to time they would pop up and fire a burst at a hidden enemy. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, pp. 22, 23

When going after bunkers, the tank commanders “shot from the hip” using the override to fire the main gun from their open turret hatch. That meant the gunners served as spare loaders. The TCs rammed the main gun muzzle right up to the bunkers’ firing slits ramming. The round blew the bunker up from the inside. Drivers drove right up on the log and earth fortifications using the tracks to finish the destruction. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 24

When a suicide group would attack a tank, one way to stop them was to throw a tanker’s grenade over the side. This was two pounds of TNT with barb wire wrapped around it. The second way was to pivot on the tracks and wrap the bad guy up as one track went forward and the other in reverse. Zumbro , Tank Sergeant,  p. 28

M-48 dealing with bunkers. AP followed by high explosive plastic (HEP). The technique first annihilated the occupants, then covered the hole with debris.  Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 35

An M-48 canister round was a disintegrating 90mm warhead with 1300 metal cylinders. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 39

Repairing mine damaged track on M-48 was a thirty minute job. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 43

In a close action fight, to ward off RPG teams, the tank commander kept throwing grenades into the bushes or down beside the holes. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 94

Busting jungle. An M-48 could knock over any tree up to two feet in diameter. Anything smaller than that was inconsequential. Generally, trees that were too large to knock over were far enough apart to pass between them. An exception was the ironwood tree. The taproot of one 6” in diameter was so deep it would stop a dozer tank. Its wood wouldn’t float as it was too dense.. There was one other exception, a short tree that had a huge root system that would come up under the hull lifting the tank clear of contact with the ground. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 166

The M-48 has a built in fire extinguisher that has two shots to it. With diesel fuel rather than the older gasoline, a crew could put out fuel tank fires. However, a spark from restarting the engine could start another fire. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 168

Tanks would slam trees to the ground, creating a fort instantly for accompanying infantry. Holes where the roots had been provided cover as did the trunks or even the crowns of the tree. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, pp. 168, 169

RPG hit bow armor of M-48 but did not penetrate. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 56

With an M-48, the treads put less pressure on the ground then would a man's boots, but a turn was the problem. The treads would break the surface and the turn dragged them sideways. When that happened, the tank they found a flooded paddy to be extremely soft and apparently without a bottom. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 47

The TC would stick his head up for no more than three seconds, then shoot the main gun using the override, and before the enemy could get a shot at them, duck down out of sight. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 61

One crewman operated an M48 alone. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, pp. 62, 63

Tank crews could actually spot many potential ambushes before accompanying infantry saw them or walked into them by the gunner at the sights continuously using his M-48’s 10 power telescopes to scan the bush for danger. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 64

The correct technique for a tank taking out a house was to peel off one wall and shoot back into the opening. This was preferable to ramming the center of the building. Doing that would cause the walls to collapse and the roof fall on the turret. Zumbro, Tank Sergeant, p. 65

M-48's fire control optics were superior to those of the T-54. McKenna, Kontum, p. 67

If an M-48 threw a track, it was a big job to fix. It had to be broken, manhandled back and reconnected. This commonly took two hours or more. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p. 136

There were termite mounds that not even tanks could knock down. Those over three feet high had to be driven around. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, pp. 136, 138

Armor vehicles can be destroyed by mortar rounds going down an open hatch. A direct hit would kill or wound crew, but otherwise not do too much damage to the vehicle. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p. 220

Tank commanders and drivers took RPG shrapnel and chipped paint fragments in the face, apparently not buttoned up. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p. 273

M-48 main guns can elevate high enough to fire canister at enemy in the trees. At a distance of 25 to 50 meters, the canister would take the tops of the trees off along with the RPG men. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p. 289

The loader of the M-48, if not loading the main gun, might be out passing ammo to the TC. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p. 290

TC used the main gun. He used the .50 while the loader was reloading the main gun. The loader would slap the TC's leg when the gun was ready again. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p. 296

After firing an M-48's main gun loaded with canister into a bunker aperture, there would be no recognizable body parts to count. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p. 310

Great installment Tom! I can just picture the M48s crushing out an LZ. That's pretty cool.

Looks like I'll have to add One Hell of a Ride to my book list.

Yes Todd both One Hell of a Ride and Tank Sergeant are excellent.

Tom

Good info Tom.

Thanks, Rod. Glad you thought so.

Tom

I did not realize I had not posted on this thread since July. I knew it was a while, but not that long. This installment covers among other things, some more U.S. vehicles and weapons plus NVA armor and armor tactics.

M-61 VULCAN
M 61 Vulcan Gatling gun stripped the trees almost bare of leaves and cut a swath through the jungle around RT Habu about 5m wide. Yarborough, Da Nang Diary, pp. 289, 290

M-79 GRENADE LAUCHER
The M79 would be fired nearly straight up and the missile landed and exploded only 15 to 20 feet away. Murphy, Dak To, p. 160

M79 in hands of a skilled grenadier was highly accurate to 200 meters. Moraldi, Uniforms and Equipment of U. S. Military Advisors in Vietnam, p. 47

Minimum distance for HE 14-38 meters based on FM 23-31,.

M79 grenadier one by one silenced VC guerrillas fighting from well prepared positions around the crest of a small hill. Hymoff, The First Air Cavalry Division in Vietnam, p. 87

M-113 ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIER AND ACAV
Armor vehicles can be destroyed by mortar rounds going down an open hatch. A direct hit would kill or wound crew, but otherwise not do too much damage to the vehicle. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p. 220

M-132A1 ZIPPO
Zippo M132A1 M8 cupola on commander's hatch with an M10-8 flamegun and 7.62mm machine gun. Could fire four or five 6-8 second bursts. Effective range was 160-170 meters. Crew commander/flamegunner and driver. Sometimes one or two men would be added for dismounted security. Rottman, The U.S. Army in the Vietnam War 1965-1973, p. 28.

M-551 SHERIDAN TANK
Due to the risk of secondary explosion, the crew of a Sheridan which had been penetrated by an enemy round would immediately bailout rather than continuing to fight.
Dunstan, Vietnam Tracks, p. 130

Armor vehicles can be destroyed by mortar rounds going down an open hatch. A direct hit would kill or wound crew, but otherwise not do too much damage to the vehicle. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p. 220

MORTAR CREWS
Mortar crews of 1/7th Cav had M-16s and M-79s. Moore and Galloway, We Were Soldiers Once and Young, p. 155

MUD WALLS
Between two Vietcong controlled villages in the Delta, scores of mud walls about 5 feet high obstructed progress. Most had gun slots. Buell, We Were There Vietnam, p. 4

NAPALM
At Hue napalm was dropped 50m in front of the USMC battalion line. Hammel, Fire in the Streets, p. 345

NVA ARMOR
Both Chinese APCs and Russian tanks (T34/85s) were manufactured with their gasoline tanks on the outside of the vehicle. Therefore it was not necessary to score a direct hit to disable or set them on fire. VNMC artillery learned to mass their fire against these targets and exploit this weakness. (I could find no photographic evidence that this applied to T54s.) Martin, Warriors of the Sea, p. 90

M-48's fire control optics were superior to those of the T-54. McKenna, Kontum, p. 67

NVA combined arms attack at Kontum was broken up by all ARVN artillery firing at the attacking forces, separating the NVA infantry from the tanks. This allowed the ARVN LAW teams to go after the tanks. McKenna, Kontum, p. 172

NVA armor tactics at Kontum. The NVA tanks often drove down roads for greater speed rather than go cross country with more security. Other times, they would choose to move slowly and cautiously rather than rapidly and aggressively to overrun enemy positions. They would also use them piecemeal rather than mass their tanks. The NVA at Kontum did not use their tanks and infantry as a team. One prisoner said they had a lecture on doing that in training but did not know how to do it. They had never practiced it. McKenna, Kontum, p. 184

NVA tanks at Kontum 1972. T-54 ran out of gas just short of the US advisor's bunker. The author attributed that to President Nixon's orders to mine North Vietnam ports and bomb their storage facilities for fuel and also their transportation networks. McKenna, Kontum, p. 221

At the battle of An Khe the T54s did not use external fuel drums. Some ran out of fuel before running out of ammo. McKenna, Kontum, p. 266

A hand grenade was thrown into the auxiliary fuel tank of a T-54 and it burst into flames. The crew bailed out and were shot down. Lam, Hell in An Loc, p. 90

T-54 was entangled with barbed wire which was lying all around the city. This caused the tank to stop dead. Lam, Hell in An Loc, p. 91

NVA tanker POW captured at An Loc said his C. O. said the ARVN at Loc Ninh ran from the tanks and that is why some were sent ahead without infantry support. Lam, Hell in An Loc, p. 92

The NVA had no direct coordinated command of their infantry and armor units at division and regimental level. They operated under separate commands. When any infantry that might be supporting the tanks ran off from air attacks, the tanks just continued on alone. Lam, Hell in An Loc, p. 93

Even in the second An Loc attack on April 15, the NVA sent tanks unsupported by infantry. Lam, Hell in An Loc , p. 100

More than once the ARVN used a 105 with direct fire to knock out a tank. Lam, Hell in An Loc, p. 101

ARVN used improvised anti-tank mines at An Loc. Lam, Hell in An Loc, p. 129

As usual, always enlightening.

Thanks Tom.

Thanks for looking and commenting, TEC.

Tom

Yes, more good info.

Garryowen wrote:
MUD WALLS
Between two Vietcong controlled villages in the Delta, scores of mud walls about 5 feet high obstructed progress. Most had gun slots. Buell, We Were There Vietnam, p.  4

So more interesting terrain ideas.

Excellent as usual Tom! Where were these when I was doing my Recon RPG campaign back in the day??

These little tidbits can come in handy Todd. That's why I started making notes from my reading and compiling them. This last section will help me with my 1972 scenarios with ARVN in An Loc, Kontum,etc.

Tom

Superb informative information,,!! keep up the good work!

regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www.gingo40s.blogspot.com

Thanks, Ged. With those kind comments I will try to add some more in the next few days.

Tom

A few more notes on NVA:

NVA ARTILLERY
Two artillery Lieutenant Colonels from Fort Sill analyzed the NVA artillery operations. Unlike the Americans and the ARVN, the NVA artillery dispersed their guns rather than concentrating them. Nonetheless, they could concentrate their fire on a single target. This indicated that the crews were extremely capable and professional and that their communications were good enough to have centralized control of their fire. Having the guns dispersed as widely as they did made ammunition supply more complicated, but made much less lucrative targets.
McKenna, Kontum,  p 206 (Keep in mind this was 1972. TEB)
 
NVA BATTLE REPORTS AND HISTORIES
Grossly inflating actual results so far as to be ludicrous was a common trait of NVA battle reports. In the attack on FSB Mahone II at Ben Tranh, the NVA claimed they killing more than 400 when in fact they killed three. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride,  p 221

NVA 7th Division history described the March 28, 1969 attack on FSB Doc by the 165th Regt. and called  it a great victory when they never penetrated the wire and lost over 100 men killed (p 216) while killing only 5 Americans. Yet the history does not even mention the March 30, 1969 attack on them by 3/4 Cav that inflicted big losses on both the 165th and 209th Regts. "Their histories were long on what they wanted to call victories while they were attacking and short on what they clearly knew were defeats while defending." Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p 223
 
NVA HEAVY AND MEDIUM MACHINE GUNS
Soviet SG – 43/SGM. The Goryunov M1943 (SG) Soviet (ChiCom Types 53 and 57)  7.62 mm, gas operated, air cooled machine gun was the standard communist heavy machine gun during the Second Indochina War. These guns can either be wheel mounted or vehicle mounted. The SGM version has a fluted barrel. Emering, Weapons and Field Gear of the North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong pp 21, 22

Maxim-The water cooled Maxim was first introduced in Germany. Modified to 7.92 mm Type 24 (1935) manufactured in China prior to World War II was supplied to the NVA. A photo refers to this as the ChiCom Type 54. Emering, Weapons and Field Gear of the North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong pp 20,21

Soviet DShK 38/46 - The 12.7mm Soviet DShK 38/46 (ChiCom Type 54 HMG) is a gas operated, air cooled versatile heavy machine gun. (This has the concentrically ribbed appearing barrel.) Emering, Weapons and Field Gear of the North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong pp 21, 22
 
NVA heavy machine gun ringed by sandbags. Brennan, Headhunters, p 136 bce
 
NVA MORTARS
The US had radar equipment to track incoming enemy mortar rounds and locate the firing position. However, either because it was not properly maintained, or its use was too complicated, or both, it never really worked properly. There was another way to do this. Supposedly all American soldiers received some training in analyzing shell craters and shrapnel dispersal to determine the direction from which the fire came as well as the approximate distance. Artillery officers were particularly good at this. McKenna, Kontum p 205
 
Armor vehicles can be destroyed by mortar rounds going down an open hatch. A direct hit would kill or wound crew, but otherwise not do too much damage to the vehicle. Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p 220
 
NVA SAPPERS
NVA sappers would be half armed with 7-14 CHICOM grenades and 20kg of TNT. The other half had AK-47s. McKenna, Kontum p 51
 
NVA TACTICS
NVA battalion CO in planning an ambush used only 54-80 men rather than his full 250 man battalion as he was concerned that the newer inexperienced men would compromise his unit's positions. So he used his more experienced men. RPG teams for this were two gunners and one ammo bearer making a cell of three. All subunits for this ambush were groups of three man cells. p 377
 
NVA ANTI-SOG TACTICS
NVA anti-SOG tactics. Plaster, SOG: The Secret Wars of America’s Commandos in Vietnam, p. 80, 81
 
NVA TRUCK CONVOYS
NVA truck drivers were draftees with little combat training. Plaster, Secret Commandos, p. 203
 
NVA convoys were usually ten or so trucks, well dispersed. Convoys were sometimes escorted by armored cars or even light tanks. Plaster, Secret Commandos, p. 204
 
NVA UNIFORMS
Tet '68 in Hue, enemy soldiers in green uniforms, trousers rolled up above the knees, each with a rucksack and a weapon. Finlayson, Marine Advisors With the Vietnamese Provincial Reconnaissance Units, 1966-1970,  p 31
 
7th Co 5th Btn 165th NVA Regt. April 1969 Eleven members wearing brown and blue uniforms. (Earlier reference to either 165^th or 209^th NVA Regt. with light green uniforms.) Haponski, One Hell of a Ride, p 341


Tom

Awesome as usual Tom, thank you Sir.

Thanks, TEC.

Tom

Garryowen wrote:

NVA SAPPERS
NVA sappers would be half armed with 7-14 CHICOM grenades and 20kg of TNT. The other half had AK-47s. McKenna, Kontum p 51
 
Tom

20 kg! This is what 10 kg of explosives looks like:



I'm going to have to beef up my satchel charge rules.

Just to be sure I had that 10kg correct and it was not a typo on my part, I went back to the book. He had a footnote to an in-country data sheet put out by one of the units.

Tom

Wow! 20kg would certainly take out any bunker.