Hunter Killer Teams

This question is for someone more in "the know" than I.....

Did Hunter-Killer teams always pair up LOACHES with COBRAS? Or were UH-1B HOGS sometimes assigned to be the "killer" in that team?

Some reference material lists these as 2 chopper teams. But I came across this quote:

Unknown wrote:“A hunter-killer team consisted of four aircraft — two Cobras (AH-1 Cobra attack helicopter), one 'Loach' (OH-6 Cayuse light observation helicopter, or 'Little Bird') and one 'Slick' (lightly armed Huey.)”

From my reading across several references, and there is reference to this in the book "Low Level Hell" by Hugh L. Mills Jr., the "team" on task was usually 2 helo's, a Loach and a Cobra, there was usually then another Cobra hanging around, hanging back, to support the first Cobra if things didn't go to plan, it wasn't unusual for the Loach to spot a target that was bait for the Cobra instead of the Loach being bait for the target.

The Huey mentioned was usually for a QRF, quick reaction force, to come to the aid of any downed pilot(s), which is also seen a number of times in Low Level hell!

Thanks Ken. That very book is sitting on my night stand waiting to be cracked. I guess I should get at it.

In my first 3mm order I got a mess of slicks and Hogs. I have Loaches coming in the next order, but looks like I'll have to grab some AH-1Gs next time.

From my reading, it is all a question of terminology. Your question was specifically about hunter-killer teams. That term apparently was not used at the beginning of the war. Later, 1969 it seems, the term came in, even though the same arrangement had been used at the beginning.

Here is what Matthew Brennan (he was with 1/9th 39 months) said at page 3 of Headhunters,, "The squadron first employed its gunships and scout ships in pairs. The two H-13s would fly "on the deck," and the two gunships would cover them from a higher altitude. The next stage was scout teams and gunship teams operating independently of one another. Bravo Troop later evolved the Pink Team, consisting of a scout chopper flying low and a gunship covering it from higher up. This arrangement was so successful that it became standard throughout Vietnam by 1969. Other units called them "hunter-killer teams. It was the best use of the new Cobras."

So in the early days, they functioned in the same way with Huey gunships and OH-13s as they did later with OH-6s and Cobras.

From my Random Historical Notes is the following:

In 1968 the scouts in A/1/9  flew a mixture 0H – 13's and Hughes LOHs (OH-6). The gunship platoon was a mixture of Huey gunships and Cobras. The Huey gunships were mostly hog ships. In October 1968 most of the gunships were Cobras. Brennan, Headhunters, p 240

In 1969, C/1/9 had at least one B model Huey  gunship. Brennan, Headhunters,  p 261

So you could mix Hueys with OH-6s and OH-13s with Cobras.

Tom

Tom, amazing insight as usual. Thanks so much!

Tom has good references there. An awful lot of Pink teams had 2 gunships early on, as one would be puling out of it's attack run the other would cover it with a run of it's own while the 1st's door gunners would cover the 2nds exit. There were even tactics where a gunship would fly slow and low over an area, and an scout helo would follow 20 or 30 seconds later to see if anyone popped out to see what was going on, calling in the trailing gunship to wreck them if they did.
Most gunship teams would be the same type, like a pair of frogs (mgs and rockets) a pair of hogs (just rockets) or heavy hogs (rockets and grenade launcher). The hogs were different from the ARA dudes as the ARA ships had the BIG rocket boxes and no door gunners. (frogs were called so because of how they looked, hogs were called so because they used so much more fuel).
I love reading about the OH-13s scouting in pairs, they were seriously deranged, talented and stupidly brave dudes.

And Darby, your great helicopter rules in FNG 2nd Tour enable all of that to be played out in a game.

In many situations you can get by without all that many choppers. Depending on the size of the table, one gunship or scout may have exited the table before the next one comes on.

Tom

Depends on scale too. You'd need a big bajeezus sized table to do that in 28mm.

That’s for sure.

Tom

This is a story from another VN related site:

This is our Infantry Platoon, A Troop, 7/17 Air Cav taking a much needed break while we were in a logger location somewhere north of Pleiku while working in that area with our Blues, Guns and Scouts. Some of us, the Crew Chiefs and gunners stood guard so they could swim. I took the picture but no date on the photo but best guess would have been March or April 1969 from some other photos taken around this picture. Little info for those who do not know how we worked. Our Blues, usually 5 or 6 Hueys loaded with our infantry platoon members would sit outside the grid our unit was working in with the Hunt and Kill team of one Huey as Command and Control, two gun ships which were cobras, and two scout birds being OH6. Back in the logger area would be the Hueys with our infantry, two relief scout birds and two guns or cobras waiting to relieve the first team. Our blues or infantry could be called in for a number of reasons depending on the situation. Such as an enemy cache found, enemy usually smaller in numbers found and fired upon by our guns and Body count needed as well as info on who and what they were, VC or Regulars, plus retrieve any important details such as maps and such. So the Hueys would deploy the Infantry at a close LZ to do their job. So waiting at the logger area sometimes not being called upon took its toll on these anxious troops who just wanted to be part of the action. Some days nothing located so they might go several missions and never see any kind of action. It was nice to get a break like this one to just chill out. Oh, sorry another mission they might be called upon was to protect one of downed aircraft, a mission all though it happened now and then, none of us wanted to have happen. Wish I could remember our Infantry's individual names but other than Doc, who was the medic obviously, their names eluded me.
In this picture at the top which is hard to see, was another unit who were loggered in the same location. I do not have any info on the other unit.

BravoSix wrote:

Todd,

It was one pic of some grunts swimming, I didn't think it was worth posting here.