Super- Bazookas

I've read in several places that bazookas disappeared from US use by 1965/6, but continued to be used by ARVN/ROK/Thai troops, however I have read accounts of them still in use in 1969/70 and there's a well-known photo from Hue that looks to me like men passing bazooka rounds up to a rooftop position.....any thoughts on this? Is it legit for SWMBO to use bazookas against my liberating heroes?

I have just been reading the Nam partwork from the 1980s, and it said that the US Marines used them in Hue in 1968. It was the sort of thing that was normally used for base defence but they would bring them out for a special occasion. Unlike the ROK troops.They used to lug them through paddy fields prior to the distribution of the LAW circa 1967.

I have been away from it for a while, so I do not remember the C.O. or Marine unit, but In Eric Hammel's excellent book on Hue, Fire in the Streets, he tells that they needed some way to move around town without going down the streets as it was too deadly. Having pulled out a manual on street fighting (the Marines had done none since Korea), he got the idea of the 3.5" rocket launcher. They were stowed back with the other gear. He had them brought forward. These were a big improvement over the WWII version.

They were first used to knock holes in walls of buildings so they could move down the street from inside the buildings, rather than in the open. Of course, if I remember correctly they were also used against NVA dug in positions.

By the way, as Bowden's name is bigger and the book is newer, his Hue is the one everyone today reads. But Hammel's book is superb. He also did a beautiful coffee table type photo book, Marines in Hue City: A Portrait of Urban Combat Tet 1968.

Tom

And this is the kind of info that FOF is known for.

-Todd

Just the job.

There are also lots of pictures of them being used outside of Hue at the same period so I have become ever so slightly sceptical of the Hue story. Not the fact that they did not take them in the initial advance into the city but the idea that they had been called up from stores and the inference that they were therefore a withdrawn front line weapon. I wonder if it was more a case that they did not expect any armour so why drag it around so leave them behind. Then the concept of mouse holing WW2 style suddenly became a necessary tactic.

Pictures of Marines hauling them through the jungle (usually folded in half.) exist and to a certain degree can be dated by the equipment and weapons notably the M16 being used in the same picture rather than the M14.

There are certainly pictures of them in Khe Sanh. Problem is there may only have been one at Khe Sanh just lots of Marines had their picture taken with it.

Its fascinating when researching periods how the most up to date periods actually can be the most complicated to confirm details as witnesses memories get confused and clouded. Makes for interesting research.

That was pretty much the conclusion I had come to. Once a bit of kit is in place it may hang around for a long time. Are you Paul the figure sculptor? If so, my wife loves painting you sculpts.

No I am Paul the owner so she loves painting a lot of my designs. as well as Paul Hicks sculpts. He is the maestro who turns my research and thoughts into tangible sculpts.

Although I do let him loose on many occasions to do his own thing on a subject.

She's got rather a lot of Empress Indian Mutiny kit as well and she's thinking about replacing the non-Empress stuff with Empress stuff once she's finished her North Africa project. I don't paint at all; if I did it would be best described as 'cruelty to miniatures'.

Well you give her a big hug from us. Looks like you picked a keeper

I'm one of very few wargamers whose wife has more toys than he does...OTH she does do several periods that I don't - Ancient Egypt, Dark Ages, Mutiny, Confrontation - and has WW2 Germans for all occasions.

Hey, Paul nice meeting you here!

I was too hasty in my post about the use of 3.5 inch rocket launchers in Hue. I should have taken the trouble at the time to put all my facts together. Paul@ Empress understandably questioned “if it was more a case that they did not expect any armour so why drag it around so leave them behind” than “that they had been called up from stores and the inference that they were therefore a withdrawn frontline weapon.”

The source of my information was Eric Hammel’s Fire in the Streets: The Battle for Hue, Tet 1968. Hammel received his information on this point from two actual participants, then LTC Ernest Cheatham, commanding 2/5 Marines, and his executive officer, then MAJ R. John Salvati. LTC Cheatham retired as a lieutenant general and MAJ Salvati retired as a lieutenant colonel/.

On page 135 of Hammel’s book he wrote, “Speaking of obsolete weapons, Cheatham decided to unearth the battalion’s flamethrowers and, more importantly, its 3.5-inch rocket launchers - World War II – vintage bazookas – which had recently been turned in for M-72 LAAW rockets (emphasis added).

This summarizes the rest of Hammel’s account of the episode, which begins on page 134. LTC Cheatham was commanding 2/5 Marines. The night before going into action in Hue, he realized he had had no training in city fighting since before departing for the Korean War. He had no occasion to use the training in that war.

From the Fifth Marines regimental CP he got a few appropriate manuals. From them he learned you gas the enemy, blow things up, and then clear out the ruins. He caused all of the gas masks and appropriate weapons he could find, even obsolete rifle grenades, to be rounded up. He also decided to dig out the flamethrowers and the 3.5-inch rocket launchers that had been recently turned in as obsolete, being replaced by the M-72 LAAW. He wanted the heavier rocket launchers to punch holes through the thick masonry walls of Hue. The LAAWs were more convenient, but less destructive.

LTC Cheatham tasked his executive officer, MAJ John Salvati, with rounding up all of the ordnance. He managed to unearth a number of the 3.5-inch rocket launchers that other Marine battalions had stored at Phu Bai, as well as plenty of ammunition for them.

It seems that for the 2/5 Marines which LTC Cheatham commanded, the bazookas were considered an obsolete weapon because they were replaced by the much more portable and disposable LAAW.

I guess there could be some question as to whether the bazooka was out of date in early 1968. First of all what is obsolete to one person is not to another. Marines in Vietnam continued to use a number of weapons and pieces of equipment, even aircraft, that the Army had already replaced.

Hammel’s book used the term “obsolete”. But we don’t know for sure whether that was Cheatham’s term or Hammel’s. Hammel’s book is not like popular history, where a well known author often writes one book on a subject and then moves on to whatever else he thinks will sell. Hammel was not writing his first book on Marines in Vietnam. He had at least four before this one was published. He has written fifty books on military history, many on the Marines. In 1985 he received the Marine Corps Combat Correspondents’ Association Award of Merit. That was six years before Fire in the Streets was published. Further, he has been a guest lecturer at the Marine Corps Educational Center, Quantico, VA, and all major Marine Corps ground and amphibious warfare commands on the West Coast. So he has some good credentials.

I was in Army ROTC from 1964 to 1967 when I was commissioned. I was not in combat, but I was in Vietnam when I was on active duty after a three year delay for law school. I never heard anything about bazookas. It was always the M-72 LAW (more properly the LAAW). It seems like never being mentioned might qualify it as obsolete.

The best single book I have seen on Vietnam weapons is Vietnam Weapons Handbook by David Rosser-Owen. On page 83, speaking of the M-72 66mm HEAT rocket light anti-armour weapon, he wrote, “This one-man, throw-away type rocket launcher replaced the M20 for most purposes, and saw considerable service in Vietnam – mostly as a bunker buster.” M20 was the designation of the 3.5-inch rocket launcher or super bazooka.

So one might say it was obsolete for most purposes, but not all.

Tom

I'm obliged Garryowen--- that was a lot of trouble to go to and I appreciate it. Also, SWMBO will appreciate the M20s! I may regret this......