3rd Squadron, 4th Cavalry, 25 Infantry Division

I am in the planning stage of a future build of a platoon from the 3/4. Never having been a Grunt, some of the differing terminology between branches of the US Army, can be a bit confusing, and seems to mean different things during different periods.

1.) 4th Cavalry - The Regiment (?) A unit smaller in size than a division (?)

2.) 3rd Squadron - The Brigade (?)

3.) A,B, & C Troops - A Company sized unit (?)

4.) 1st, 2nd, & 3rd Platoons - This one I understand.

-BadMoon

Are there any treadheads on the board?

Not a treadhead, but I can handle some of this.

1.) 3/4 Cav is the Third Squadron of the Fourth Cavalry. Really the 4th Cavalry was no longer a unit at all by the time of Vietnam.

4th Cavalry was originally (in the Civil War) a real unit, a real regiment of cavalry consisting of twelve companies (later called troops). By Vietnam, in most cases, the regimental designation was only for lineage (tradition). But it was an identifier. Thus the 4 distinguishes that 3rd Squadron from the 3rd Squadron, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, for example, which was a real regiment (confusing).

While a regiment was far smaller than a division, in the case of 3/4 Cavalry, it was meaningless in true organizational terms.

2.) 3rd Squadron was not a brigade. Squadron is generally the equivalent of battalion, but it is a term used by cavalry units. Battalion is used by infantry and artillery for a grouping of companies or batteries. 3rd Squadron consisted of four troops.

3.) A, B, And C Troops are the equivalent of companies. You are correct. Troop is a cavalry term. Company, as you know is an infantry term. In the artillery they are batteries.
Troop D of the 3/4 Cavalry was an air cavalry troop, serving mostly with the 25th Aviation Battalion. That battalion was, like the 3/4 Cavalry, attached to the 25th Infantry Division.

There was also a 1/4 Cavalry which served with the 1st Infantry division. The 3/4 Cavalry and the 1/4 Cavalry had no common commander as there was no unit, the 4th Cavalry.

The Army's desire to eliminate the regimental level of organization and have battalions form brigades (regiments previously had been an in between level of organization), but at the same time try to preserve some traditions from the regiments' histories, leads to confusion.

Besides my general knowledge, I did check things out in Shelby Stanton's Veitnam Order of Battle, primarily page 125.

Hope that helps.

Tom

Wow Tom...... NOW who's hardcore?

It could probably have been written with more clarification. Maybe Darby could help out.

Tom

Thank Tom, that helped to clarify things for me. I forgot the whole battalion thing but as I said, I was never a grunt....

Now on to more specific questions:



In reviewing 100's of personal photos posted on the 3/4 Assoc. web site, in almost all pictures of tracks, the vehicle has an identifying number. These numbers seem to be between 10-18 and 30-38 (nothing in the 20 range for some reason), and seem to be the same in Troop A and C photos (Troop B has practically nothing posted). I am guessing a track numbered 10 would be the Command Track from the Troop's 1st Platoon where as a track numbered 30 would be the Command Track from the 3rd Platoon? I have also noticed that there are no pictures of any tracks numbered 19 or any tracks that look to be a M125, so either the Mortar Section did not go into the field or although it appears on the Table of Organization wasn't used/issued?

-BadMoon

BadMoon, post a link to the photos you are talking about, please.

Tom

Thanks for posting those. In the meantime I had looked at a photo book on the M-113 and saw photos of two 3/4 Cav bridge laying tracks. They had those large numbers on the side too. 114 was on one and 115 on the other.

Interestingly of the few 3/4 Cav photos I saw from the front, none seemed to have bumper numbers.

You may be correct that 10 is a platoon leader. I say that as I see what appears to be two antenna on it. That commonly indicates two radios, one for communicating among the platoon and the other for the troop net.

In fact, Charlie would pick multi-antenna tracks as preferred targets, realizing it was likely a command track.

I don't see any side gun positions on 10. Hmm.

I am afraid I cannot help you with those large side numbers as I have never seen them on anything other than 3/4 Cav. I am guessing they are unit specific.

By the way, this is an outstanding memoir of a trooper in the 3/4 Cav. One Hundred Miles of Bad Road. He saw some heavy action. I know I have read it twice. I may have read it three times.
https://www.amazon.com/Hundred-Miles-Bad-Road-Cavalryman/dp/0891416285

Tom

Tom has it LOCKED donw!
As I recall, when originally shifted to Vietnam the tracks in the 3/4 were all designated in consecutive order within their Troops. So 1st platoon had 10's, 2nd had 20's, 3rd had 30's. Mortar carriers, HQ and command tracks had sub-10 numbers, maintenance and "other support" (radar, AA, ambulance) all had 50+ numbers, there were no 40's. This was muddied very quickly as tracks from one platoon or troop were shifted to fill gaps in others, and new replacement vehicles came online. In '67 they shook things up a bit and came up with the designations as shown in the image above. But, the consecutive of it was never perfect. Often you'll see pictures of like the 14 and 16 track in with the 34 track as it replaced one that hit a mine or something.

I'd say don't worry too much about it, name them and number them what looks good to you.

The track in the photo above must be from early on, like early 66, as there's no shielding on the TC area either, or it has been taken off (which I doubt). A lot of them had the acute bent TC gunshield before the ACAV kit came along with the bathtub and side guns.

Darby has it locked down, not me.

Darby is a walking encyclopedia of the Vietnam War. We are very fortunate to have him here.

Tom

Garry Owen wrote:
Darby is a walking encyclopedia of the Vietnam War. We are very fortunate to have him here.

I concur! Here's to Darby! But don't sell yourself short Tom. Your knowledge on such matters are also unparalleled and we're lucky to have you aboard as well!

My buddy David just turned me onto this thread.

My father in law served with B Troop, 1 Squadron, 4th Cavalry ("Quarter Cav"). He recently told me his unit, which I guess would be a platoon per Tom's post, had:

3 M48s
7 M113 (based on pictures all ACAV) with 4 crew each

Based on after action reports it appears in 1/4 they used letters as platoon designation- L Platoon, B Troop, 1-4

I have some photos too I will share. Excited to see this come together!

OK, so if the platoon had 7 x 113 sand each 113 had a crew of 4, would the balance of the team be a half-squad of 6 to make a dismounted total of 3 squads of 12 (ish) and a platoon HQ of...4? 6? .....I think I see the makings of one of our 'narrative games' here!

My understanding is that, generally speaking, an Armored Cav platoon had an infantry section which would divide up amongst all the ACAVs to be extra security and firepower, to pass ammo, or to jump off an do grunty things. So the crew/passengers of each vehicle was not a squad equivalent with 10 people.

Edit: Aha, the chart towards the top shows it as well. Of course it's different in a Mechanized unit (where each squad had a track and members of the squad crewed the thing) vs. Amored Cav.

From what I have read it was common to have an M-79 gunner in with the M-60 gunners to as as rear guard.

Tom

Some nice shots on this website of 1/4, sorry not 3/4
Lima Platoon, C Troop, 1/4 Cav

RE Infantry Section with Cav Platoon?

After Action Account from 1/4
We were running about four people per track so that we could dismount one or two and fire our
50s and drive the track and still have people on the ground throwing grenades, and I also had an infantry platoon with me.

this implies the cav platoons did not have inherent infantry beyond the 4 man M113 crews. Does that sound right?

..and wee working in tandem with an infantry platoon?

I've read that they just jumped onto whatever track. Usually the infantry platoon sgt would divy the troops up and point to which track which team would go to. Definitely no set standard.

From Riders of the Storm: Invicibles by TN Rauh (fiction, but he served in 11th Cav)