Native/Colonial infantry units 1945.

So before the Japanese attack how where these units equipped? I mean most have the 02 Fusil Tirailleurs Indochinois, with 07/15 for Colonial (white) troops. Where there any Native LMG/MMG or other heavy weapons like Mortars or ATG.

Thinking particularly of Regiment de Tirailleurs Annamites and Regiment Mixte d'Infanterie Coloniale.

Also what were the Annam and Cochinchina Motor Detachments equipped with?

Any information gratefully received.

John

I found the one pic of tirailleurs annamites on parade ( in parade uniform ) in 1940 , not so many photos of them in ww2 . a lot in ww1 .
The photo of them with the two Hotchkiss I guess is 1914 approx , so assume if they had them in this period they would have in 1940/45 ?

Thanks, that's really useful.

So Annamites had MMG. But how many per BN? And where there LMG? Unlikely to be Chatellerault mle24. Possibly the mini-tripod Hotchkiss mle1909? And mortars, any?

Thanks again

John

Hello John,
I submitted your question to different sources but still waiting for an answer.
In the meantime, I propose you the description of the organization of the French infantry in 1940. Colonial infantry ought to be identical, even in 1945.
It is in French but with copy paste in Google traduction it helps: organization RI 1940
Regards,
Richard

Thanks very much Richard. I thought Colonial infantry was similar to Metropolitan regiments. But was the level of issue the same (1 VB and 1 LMG per squad) and what is intriguing is scale of support weapons issued to Vietnamese units (Tonkinese or Annamite Tirailleurs, particularly).

John

Hello John,
in this link you will find the description of the motor detachments: Détachements Motorisés
Regards,
Richard

Maybe you know that already: Vichy OB in Indo-China, 1940-1945

It seems there are some infos in those two books:
"Meigō Operation: the Japanese Attack of the 9 March 1945 and the Elimination of French Army in Indochina (« L’opération Meigô : le coup de force japonais du 9 mars 1945 et l’élimination de l’armée française en Indochine » )
Pascal N’Guyen-Minh, "Guerre et Paix en Asie du Sud-Est"

Hi Richard. I've had a read of the post above and the Det. Mot. attachment. Is this a part proposal? Remarkably it seem US supplying Vichy French with half-tracks and (4) light tanks. Is that correct????

Also what are SAV-41s? Do you have a link to photo/details? Could it be Somua with enlarged turret/main gun. Not the hull mounted gun type.

And how did they get there? I thought Germans prevented major war materials leaving Vichy France.

Interested to know.

John

PS still hoping to have equipment levels for Annamite Tirailleurs?

Hello
Look strange to me that the M2A4 was in Indochina in 1942.
The first stuart (M5) came with the 2eDB ( second tank division) in 1945.
What is SAV 41?

Well Redfox USMC did use M2A4, very briefly, in Pacific but most were used as driver training vehicles as far as I can see.  Also look at all those American half-tracks, APCs, Mortars carriers, 75mm GMC and hints of Quad 50s.  I am surprised by this listing. I was unaware that US sold arms to Vichy regime. (see  Détachements Motorisés from Richard Marquis)

The SAV41 maybe a SAU41 (improved Somua) but how they got there and which post 1940 version were is service is again not clear.

I have asked Richard if he has any clarification but if this comes from a primary source (which appears impeccable) then it may remain unclear if it was a formed or proposed unit.

All best  John

Hello John,
I was not 100% convinced when I submitted the post for detachement motorisé because when I searched for M2A4 tank, I only find the US tank, that is effectively strange as Indochina was for Vichy until 1944 and was Isolated. I could not find either that M2A4 is a word for a French material code in ww2. So I a bit disappointed: the source seems serious but I have not enough knowledge to validate it. I think that FT 17 tanks instead of M2A4 would be more accurate (there were FT 17 in Indochina during WW2.
And for the info relative to SAV-41, I don't find the url anymore so by default you can forget it: I will delete it as I don't find the source anymore. But SAV-41 is a name given for Somua tank (35) variant produced in Canada, if I remember. Sorry for the noise with that post.
There is a forum dedicated to Indochina (https://laguerreenindochine.forumactif.org/) maybe you cold find valid information.
Regards,
Richard

Hello
I'm on the indochina forum.
the FT17 in 1945 .this is what I found( google trad)



From
https://clausuchronia.wordpress.com/tag/division-de-cochinchine-cambodge/
As regards the tanks and the cavalry, one finds in Indochina in September 1939 only scattered units with a squadron of machine guns in Hanoi and a platoon stationed in Saigon, platoon which will become squadron later.
There are also detachments of tanks equipped with Renault FT (a company in Hanoi, one in Saigon, a motorized detachment in Cochinchina plus in China two sections deployed in Tien-Tsin and a company in Shanghai.



From the indochina forum


In March 1945, for the Tonkin Division, there were 4 FT in the Tonkin Motorized Detachment (Tong), 4 others in the Hanoi Motorized Detachment and a few more in the Legion Motorized Detachment (based in Langson). In my opinion, those of the DMH and DML must have been completely destroyed during the fighting. Those of Tong, I don't know ...



You can find an ordre of battle( in english) for indochina in 1940 here( must be the same in 1945 before the japanese attack), can be helpfull for your search:
http://france1940.free.fr/oob/indo.html


Here is a picture taken in Saïgon from my father's collection


Can I ask you what is your plan? Are you going to play this period?

Pascal

Hi Pascal

From the translation you've very kindly provided I guess the 'Machine guns' are MG armed Armoured Cars. I have some information on the availability of AFV in Vichy Indochine. This last paper was a complete suprise.

Anyway it's a bit of a distraction while I hunt for Organisation details for the locally rasied Tirailleur Bns.

Thanks

Yes hope to game Cochinchina 1945-50.

some colonial artillery in Indochina , maybe these were still present in 1945 ?
I think its also on the axis forum , it came up somewhere there were only a total of 27 25mm anti tank guns in the whole country .

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=112&t=229249&p=2084247&hilit=indochine#p2084247

Bit of a for attn of everyone, regarding the source of the Detachment Motorised above. Tried for corroboration on another group and got this message.
The document the original question is based on is from a “What if France continued in the war” alternate history site. https://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org

So that seems to be a thread to put to one side.

Cheers John

hello
In my books ,I've found a magazine with an article on tanks and armoured cars (white TBC and citroen P 104) from 1919 to 1936. I will post more information this week-end
I've got plenty of information from 1946 and after if you want to play indochina.
For the composition of Regiment de Tirailleurs Annamites and Regiment Mixte d'Infanterie Coloniale and armement I've asked on Indochina forum

Thanks Redfox. Sometime ago I downloaded an article about French armour from another group. I will be very interested to compare notes. I will post the details later too.

Thanks for your kind offer. When this fecking virus is controlled some friends want to play Op Masterson.

Take care John

Hello
Hi, I found this pdf in my virtual library. It's in French but are you interested?

Absolutely. I dare not speak French and shaky writing but happy enough to read.

Many thanks
John

Here is the link
https://www.mediafire.com/file/stbsceuhwcmtp9w/03_HS_L_indochine_en_Guerre.pdf/file

thanks

I found this picture and an order of battle


there ,it's in 1919 but you can guess that if they  got machine gun in 1919 ,they must have some in 1940/45



ordre de bataille ( order of battle)français en Indochine entre 1940 et 1945

Division du Tonkin
1ère brigade (Haïphong)
2e brigade (Hanoï)
3e brigade (Dap Cau)
groupement divisionnaire de Lang Son
groupement divisionnaire de Lao Kay 1er territoire militaire (Moncay)
2e territoire militaire (Cao Bang)
3e territoire militaire (Ha Giang)
4e territoire militaire (Lai Chau)
5e territoire militaire (Phong Saly)
Brigade d'Annam - Laos
Division de Cochinchine - Cambodge
Groupement de Cochinchine
Groupement du Cambodge
Secteur de Cap Saint-Jacques
RÉGIMENTS
5e régiment étranger d'infanterie
1er, 2e, 3e bataillons, détachement motorisé de la Légion
9e régiment d'infanterie coloniale (9e RIC)
1er, 2e, 3e, 4e bataillons (à partir de 1944), détachement du Tonkin (à partir de 1945)
11e régiment d'infanterie coloniale (11e RIC)
1er, 2e, 3e, 4e bataillons (à partir de 1944), détachement motorisé de Cochinchine
10e régiment mixte d'infanterie coloniale
1er, 2e, 3e, 4e bataillons (à partir de 1940), détachement motorisé d'Annam
16e régiment mixte d'infanterie coloniale
1er, 2e, 3e, 4e (à partir de 1944)
19e régiment mixte d'infanterie coloniale
1er, 2e, 3e, 4e bataillons
1er régiment de tirailleurs tonkinois
1er, 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e (à partir de 1941), 6e (à partir de 1941) bataillons
3e régiment de tirailleurs tonkinois
1er, 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e bataillons
4e régiment de tirailleurs tonkinois
1er, 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e bataillons
1er régiment de tirailleurs annamites
1er, 2e, 3e bataillons
2e régiment de tirailleurs annamites
1er, 2e (à partir de 1940), 3e (à partir de 1941) bataillons
Bataillon de tirailleurs montagnards du Sud-Annam
4e régiment d'artillerie coloniale
5e régiment d'artillerie coloniale
Bataillon du génie
Compagnie du génie du Tonkin
Compagnie du génie de Cochinchine
Compagnie de sapeurs du chemin de fer
Train blindé du Tonkin
Train blindé du Cambodge
Groupement automobile de Cochinchine

Régiments de tirailleurs déployés dans l’Empire
Par rapport aux régiments de tirailleurs déployés à demeure en métropole, les régiments de tirailleurs déployés dans l’Empire sont moins bien armés, devant faire face à un ennemi nettement moins mordant que les divisions allemandes. Ils sont donc organisés de la façon suivante :
-La Compagnie de Commandement dispose d’un PC, de moyens de transmissions, de renseignement, des éclaireurs motocyclistes et des sapeurs pionniers
-Quatre bataillons d’infanterie
-Un Etat-major et une section de commandement
-Une Compagnie d’accompagnement avec une section de commandement, trois sections de quatre mitrailleuses MAC-36 de 7.5mm ou de Hotchkiss modèle 1914 de 8mm et une section d’engins avec deux canons de 25mm et deux mortiers de 81mm.
-Trois compagnies de fusiliers-voltigeurs avec une section de commandement avec un mortier de 60mm et quatre sections de combat
-La Compagnie Régimentaire d’Engins (CRE) dispose de deux mortiers de 81mm ainsi que de 8 canons de 25mm.
-La Compagnie Hors-Rang est chargé du ravitaillement, de l’approvisionement, du dépannage et du soutien sanitaire

(google trad)
Skirmishers' regiments deployed in the Empire
Compared to the sharpshooters regiments permanently deployed in mainland France, the sharpshooters regiments deployed in the Empire are less well armed, having to face an enemy much less biting than the German divisions. They are therefore organized as follows:
-The Command Company has a PC, means of communications, intelligence, motorcycle scouts and pioneer sappers
-Four infantry battalions
-A staff and a command section
-An accompanying company with a command section, three sections of four 7.5mm MAC-36 or Hotchkiss Model 1914 8mm machine guns and a missile section with two 25mm guns and two 81mm mortars.
-Three companies of riflemen-voltigeurs with a command section with a 60mm mortar and four combat sections
-The Regimental Company of Engines (CRE) has two 81mm mortars and 8 25mm guns.
-The Hors-Rang Company is responsible for supplies, supplies, repairs and health support

for the armoured

   n January 1938, the armoured vehicles were grouped into two Détachements Motorisés (Motorised Detachment) and one armoured car squadron




       the Détachement Motorisé n°1 was attached to the 4e RAC and had one motorcycle platoon with both solo motorcycles and sidecar combinations, one platoon of Citroen-Kégrese P 104 ,  two platoons of AM White Mle 1918 and one Indochinese engineer company.

       the Détachement Motorisé n°2, attached to the 9e RIC, had one FT 17 company with four platoons (one of which was detached to the Brigade d'Annam's I/10e RMIC).

       one Escadron d'auto-mitrailleuses de cavalerie with two platoons of armoured cars was attached to the 5e RAC.


   Thus it appears that on the eve of the Second World War about twenty FT17 tanks remained (most of them apparently armed with the 37mm gun  along with at least three to five Citroen-Kégrese P 104, six to  ten AM White Mle 1918 and six to ten unidentified auto-mitrailleuses de cavalerie (apparently Laffly-White AM 50 although some sources mention an enigmatic "Panhard 1928"
   At the outbreak of war, these vehicles were reorganised into three motorised
   detachments :



       the Détachement Motorisé du Tonkin (DMT - Tonkin Motorised  Detachment), stationed in Tong, was attached to the 9e Régiment d'Infanterie Coloniale (RIC - Colonial Infantry Regiment) ;

       the Détachement Motorisé d'Annam (DMA - Annam Motorised Detachment) stationed in Hue and attached to the 10e RMIC ;

       the Détachement Motorisé de Cochinchine (DMC - Cochinchina   Motorised Detachment) stationed in Thu Dau Mot and attached to the 11e RIC. This unit's FT-17s seem to have been  up-armoured with plates landed from the Aramis auxiliary cruiser
       when it was disarmed and returned to civilian service in June 1941 !


   These motorised detachments were apparently organised into one tank platoon and an unknown number of armoured car and mechanised infantry platoons (probably one of each). The armoured cars seem to have been Laffly-White  AM 50s with some older AM White Mle 1918 while the mechanised infantry  used armed Renault UE 2 carriers. These vehicles bear a striking resemblance to the ten armed UE variants bought by China in 1936 although the casemate which houses the Chatellerault LMG differs in several respects. It is not known whether these are the result of a June 1940 order for AMX armoured casemates or of a specific 1939 contract with the Ministry of Colonies.  Neither are the exact numbers in service (at least twelve are mentioned
   in Tonkin around 1945) nor the date of their arrival in Indochina known  but there is photographic evidence of at least two surviving in Cambodia as late as 1945.
   A Détachement Motorisé de la Légion (DML - Foreign Legion Motorised Detachment) was raised in May 1940 and attached
   to the 5e Régiment Etranger d'Infanterie (REI - Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment).
However, this unit had no armoured vehicles and used  only motorcycles (both solo and combinations), field cars and light trucks.
   Besides the vehicles already reported, one source  mentions the DMC's use of lightly armoured trucks during its January 1941
   operations against Thai forces while another indicates that these in fact belonged to the 9e RIC's 20mm Oerlikon AA
   platoon. In any case, their effectiveness led to several Ford trucks being armoured by the artillery workshops and permanently armed with with the Oerlikons after the Franco-Thai border clashes.
   Also, two locally armoured trains were available in Indochina, one based in Tonkin and one in Cambodia. These were mainly useful for securing the railways during internal uprisings.
   The Cambodia armoured train seems to have been used to patrol the narrow gauge line between Phnom Penh and Poipet during the war with Thailand although it didn't see any action. Both of them survived until 1945 but nothing else is known about these trains.